Is the 4th Amendment Dead?
Newscoma has called time of death for the 4th Amendment at 3:23PM on July 9th 2008.
Sharon Cobb laments Barack Obama's vote in favor of the final bill saying, "I could deal with his move to the middle to get elected. I could deal with him not having the best health plan...But voting FOR FISA? No. I can't deal with that."
I get that people are upset with this, but c'mon, the death of the 4th amendment? Setting aside telecom immunity, what is so damned bad about this bill? Newscoma summarizes some of the key points:
Require the secret court set up to oversee FISA to review the surveillance of any targeted American whether the person is in the United States or abroad; Provide for the FISA court to sign off on procedures for removing the name of any American inadvertently captured in a communication with a foreign target; Prohibit reverse targeting, which is when intelligence officials eavesdrop on a foreigner’s communications overseas as a means to spy on someone in the United States. Close a loophole by explicitly establishing the 1978 law as the exclusive means for authorizing electronic surveillance; Set up a procedure for federal judges to determine whether a telecommunications company can be sued for providing the intelligence community access to its networks without a court order.
Now, so far as I can tell, the amendments to FISA actually increase our civil liberties protections over what the current administration is doing, they don't decrease it. The amendments, by and large, add more layers of protections while updating a law designed well before the changes in technology such as disposable cell phones and internet.
If we are going to declare a date of death for the 4th amendment, I think American history is replete with examples far worse than this updated FISA bill...namely any time during which Hoover was director of the F.B.I.
Could this bill have been better? Sure, but telecom immunity is hardly an issue worth being disillusioned over. The chance of a punitive award large enough to make a difference to the phone companies was remote at best (at least at the appellate level) - at best a few lawyers would've gotten rich and we would've gotten a free coupon. And the notion that we would've gotten more information out of these civil trials is ridiculous, because the information desired is classified.
If the House and Senate want investigations, they ought to subpoena the heads of these companies in a closed-door committee to see what did and didn't happen, and then work from there.
Civil liberties violations often happen in war time, especially after traumatic events like 9/11. We didn't go back and throw Attorney General Francis Biddle in a cell because of his actions in the detention of the Japanese after Pearl Harbor (a far greater violation of civil liberties than data mining). I think throwing telecom executives in jail for cooperating with the Federal Government after 9/11 would be a step too far. We should strengthen the laws we have, increase oversight, and do our best to prevent something like this in the future...but its time we look forward.
See Also:
Gail Collins' message to those disillusioned by the "new" Obama:
When an extremely intelligent politician tells you over and over and over that he is tired of the take-no-prisoners politics of the last several decades, that he is going to get things done and build a “new consensus,” he is trying to explain that he is all about compromise. Even if he says it in that great Baracky way.
The new FISA bill was a compromise, and isn't it better to get some of what you want than to get nothing at all?



19 comments:
I can't help but be disappointed about it. I'm tired of compromising. That doesn't mean I'm not voting for Obama's but the great thing is that I don't have to agree with everything he does.
And believe me, I know about compromise.
I'm in John Tanner's district.
I guess I've never understood the enthusiasm over this issue, the application of American power overseas is far more important to me.
Sean: Look at the diverse groups that teamed up against this: from right to left, those who fully understood what was at stake lined up in opposition. So even if you were not necessarily completely up on all of the specific principles at play, you would need to ask yourself seriously what is it that everyone is upset about (as you yourself have . . . if only rhetorically).
The thing you seem to gloss over is that this was done to protect the administration (not the telecoms) from the only avenue for those trying to figure what exactly has the government been doing.
Let me illustrate by using your own example:
How do you know that the gov't has not been repeating Hoover's sins?
You don't. And now you won't. The civil trials would have brought this to light.
Oh . . . but I am sure its fine if you have nothing to hide because if the president says its legal . . . and you have no way of knowing that it is spying on you . . . and you have no way of knowing if private companies helped him spy on you . . . all in direct contravention of the 4th amendment proscription against such broad searches . . . well then I am sure it is no big deal.
Maybe it is becasue I am lawyer and am a little deeper in the structural and constitutional implications involved, but the reason this is actually MUCH MUCH worse than Hoover is this:
You cite Hoover's excesses as "real" damage (as if that in anyway makes this better). Well, I think this is much more revealing than you supposed.
You do know that FISA was enacted in the climate following the revelations of the FBI (inclduing Hoover) and CIA's BS, correct?
So you can't with a strait face actually cite that as an example of a threat to our civil liberties that we as a nation were able to overcome when we just Congressionally condoned the Executive Branch's complete ignoring the restrictions that were enacted in response to your "example."
Think about it . . . you just kinda disproved your whole point: Congress just said to the Prez, "Yeah . . . about all the protections we enacted in response to outrages like those of Hoover . . . just kidding. It is cool if you say its cool. We don't even need to know what you did really . . . we were just foolin'"
One obvious pont that you seem somewhat ambivalent about that should also be quite obvious: We are talking about the constitution.
Any argument that boils down to "Well . . . I mean it's not that bad" when speaking of its violation is borderline treasonous on its face (yes . . . I specifically used that word).
If you really want to rest on such a position, that is your perogative, but it actually says much more than I sense you would suppose.
You don't. And now you won't. The civil trials would have brought this to light.
Why do you assume this information would be divulged in a civil trial? If the info is classified, it certainly wouldn't be covered under discovery. If we want that info, then the House can convene a committee hearing and subpoena (under closed session if necessary) it from them.
I had trouble following all your arguments, but they seem directed at the administration. I'm fine with investigating them and seeing what damage they did, but I just don't think telecom companies should be subjected to punitive damages for cooperating with the Federal government.
If the AG, in an Obama administration, wants to setup an investigation to see what happened, that's cool with me.
Either way, I don't think this immunity provision really has all that much real world effect, as I don't think the civil trials would've accomplished what the activists think it would've.
Obama was supposed to be different.
It's just politics as usual, and I wasn't prepared for that. I felt I like I got sucker punched.
Yes, of course I'll still vote for him, but as I look at the various "Change We Can Believe In" paraphernalia around my house, it's almost mocking me.
Sharon,
Well, I guess telecom immunity is really important to you. But its also important to note that he came out against the California ballot initiative to ban gay marriage. He could've easily thrown that under the bus (and remained fairly consistent with past positions), but chose not to.
It may not be the perfect change, but its still a significant difference over what we've had before.
Obama has always said he wanted to pass some form of FISA updates, he just didn't want Telecom immunity. The House crafted a compromise bill, and Obama tried to strip the bill of immunity...but when that didn't happen, he supported the best bill they were going to get. It was stupid for his campaign to lock him into a filibuster of any bill, but it mistakes are always going to be made.
Change you can believe in.
www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/07/barack_w_bush.html
With this sort of thing, there are ways around any law or tweaking of law. Y'all do know that U.S. intelligence has reciprocal agreements with Britain, don't you? You will never hold our shadow government to account.
[B]ut I just don't think telecom companies should be subjected to punitive damages for cooperating with the Federal government.
Sean: you need to read up about what is really at stake in this debate. The unduly simplistic principle above shows that you have just missed the point on this. Ignore Obama for a second. Let me just respond to the above statement:
(1) Why? Why do you think they should not be subject to the threat of damages if the gov't basically asked them to do what the gov't itself is Constitutionally forbidden from doing? That is too cute by half AND CONGRESS KNEW THIS WHEN THEY PASSED FISA in the 70's. Everyone understood how such a game would play out when this was enacted. The Gov't could always claim"national security . . . classified" in the face of Congressional or judicial inquiry. Private companies COULD NOT. So how do you stop the gov't from being so cute? Provide severe disincentives for private companies to conspire in such an enterprise.
(2) You seem to presume that they could not defend themselves even though the law as it stood allowed for the defense of good faith reliance on gov't. It seeems you implicitly accept that what they did was illegal, but you don't seem bothered in the least by it. The gov't should just contract all such shenanigans then (locke's comment below is actually relevant though there has been some legislation aimed at CIA - MI6 "swapping"). If Nixon would've used Ma Bell instead of the plumbers and claimed "national security" the logic of your principle would have allowed for "Aw shucks . . . they were just doing what the gov't asked."
(3) What about Qwest? They followed the LAW not the PREZ. Are we a nation of laws or of men? As Greenwald notes, this was obviously so bad that "John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller -- right-wing ideologues all who approved of the lawless 'Terrorist Surveillance Program' -- all threatened to resign en masse if those still-unknown activities continued." They realized it. Qwest realized it. Now we reward those that shrugged and said "Aw shucks . . . if you really want us to then sure we'll break the law."
Look . . . ignore Obama's stand and read more into this. Somehow you seem to think it unfair to "punish" the telecoms for "cooperating" but in the end what the lawsuits that will be snuffed seek is to punish the telecoms for THEIR CRIMES.
Maybe that is where you and I differ but I have no problem with that in the least.
[And go read up on the provisions going forward . . . this law DOES NOT offer more protections. Here is a start: http://media.salon.com/media/mp3/2008/07/conversations_jaffer.mp3]
http://media.salon.com/media/mp3/2008/07/conversations_jaffer.mp3
http://media.salon.com/media/mp3/2008/07/conversations_jaffer.mp3
ok . . . I give up on that link.
Just check out Greenwald's latest where link can be found.
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